Mr Meaningful Work and the Queen of Hearts

In our second episode of "What's Humanly Possible" Tim - Mr. Meaningful Work - O'Leare meets with Chief Heart Officer at Vayner Media Claude Silver. The pair talk through the role of empathy in building high performing teams as well as the whole lifecycle of hiring and talent acquisition.

Transcript

T: All right, what is up everybody? It's your boy Tim,Mr Meaningful Work and I am super excited for this video series. I am geeked up, fanboying out, I have been smiling the entire trip coming out here because I am joined by the Queen of Hearts if you will the Queen of heart herself Claude Silver! Claude what's up girl?

C: Mr Meaningful Work and Queen of Hearts, they meet again. They meet again I'm stoked, at an awesome opportunity. 

T: We shared a stage out in wine country earlier this year at the talent development think tank and this thing came up with the What's Humanly Possible video series and talking about human resources, engagement,  talent acquisition. I mean the first thing was like, “we gotta talk to the Queen of Hearts”.  I think that I'm gonna have #queenOfHearts, that's gonna be your that's gonna be our thing um but we wanted to talk to you a little about your story um your perspectives on um how to keep heart at the center of how we bring people on how we keep them um how we grow and develop them and we're going to kind of have a format when we… I love storytelling and I'm sure you do as well. As part of how you communicate and so the way we're gonna do this we're going to set it up with an origin story, right? 

Every story has hero, the protagonist, you have the antagonist, the arch nemesis, the person that has to be victored over. And they have a challenge. Something you have to go through. And so we're going to kind of walk through that for the series but let us start with the hero story. The origin story. Tell us your origin story

C: I love it! I'm a big Joseph Campbell fan so the hero's journey just speaks to me.

What can I say? I was I was actually born in New York City, the city in which we're in yeah and when I was 12 we moved to Santa Fe, New Mexico so can you imagine coming from this metropolis to brown adobe. And I think we were one of three Jewish families there.  But it was the best thing my parents could have done I I'll definitely say um, I've got a younger brother who is 18 months younger

T: Nice

C: We are tight as thick as thieves which is awesome he's always been my cheerleader and my parents are amazing very, very generous, giving people. Charitable people. So I was raised in that type of atmosphere where you give.  Yeah, you are of service. It's not even - I you don't think twice about it yeah.

Um I sucked at school. I was so challenged with school I was diagnosed with dyslexia (which obviously a lot of people are) and back then they didn't really have the tools to help so I just tried and I spent so much time so I just tried and I spent so much time trying to overcome my weaknesses that I think I ended up really kind of self-defeating myself in a way.

I happen to be a great athlete, yeah, so I had that working for me, which helped with confidence, and great friend and what not, yeah, um. And Santa Fe was amazing. Santa Fe is small, yeah, that's the thing I can say. So, everyone kind of knows your business, yeah, um, anyway. 

School was challenging. I should never have gone to college. I literally just didn't have any options, yeah, so I got in on the waiting list to one college, yeah, and I went. And away I went to Rollins College in Florida, and thank God I could play tennis. But let me tell you, the bad boys, bad decisions, bad drugs really found their way to me. And I was like, um, after my sophomore year, "Whoa, mom, dad, I need a massive timeout, breaks, yeah, yeah." And so I said to my parents, "I need to find the longest, like outdoor course I could find, yeah, in Santa Fe. Being in Santa Fe, the wilderness, the outdoors, hiking, camping, all that stuff is just in your, yeah, yeah. So be careful what you ask for, yeah. I found a 93-day wilderness leadership program Outward Bound was running in Colorado. 

So I was 19, and I was the only young woman with nine young men, all 18, 19, 20. We all carried 80, 85 pounds on our back. We were gone for 93 days. This is no cell, 1991, yeah, cell phone, yeah, snail mail, every 18 days. You got a resupply, you got to use the pay phone, what's that, and you got a shower, a real shower, haha, oh. Tell me not to use toilet paper, uh, yeah. I'm talking, this was, I was roughing it, but it is what I needed to get my butt kicked, yeah, because I had gotten myself into this, this trough, yeah, of “Claude is not gonna go anywhere,” and I knew Claude was gonna go somewhere, yeah. So thankfully, this course, 93 days, I come out of it a much stronger person. 

T: I love it

C: Confident, knowing that I wanted to be a servant leader, yeah. And really quick story though, that I think is impactful because it really speaks to how I then learn to control this narrative, yeah, which is really a key. 

First day, we're all climbing a thousand feet, we're in Colorado, it's October, it's snowing like cats and dogs, and I am way behind the pack, yeah. I can imagine, remember, bad decisions, bad drugs, yeah, bad boys, so I had like a lot of demons inside of me. The instructor comes all the way down because I'm really falling behind, and I'm just praying, "I break my leg, yes, please let me break my leg, oh, let me twist my ankle, yeah." 

She goes, "What's going on in your head?" And I said to her, "Well, I'm singing that song, you know, 'Head like a hole, black as your soul, I'd rather die than give you control.'" She goes, "You better get another song in your head."

T: Wow

C: And that was the minute that still stays with me today, yeah, that I can control this. If I tell myself I'm a dummy, energy follows thought, yeah. If I tell myself I'm a work in progress, if I tell myself I'm here to be of joyful service, yeah, and be kind, it all manifests, yeah. So, be careful what you think, yeah, um, so anyway, I came out of that, and um, I ended up graduating from college at 28, okay, with a lot of psychology, human behavior. But in those years between, you know, 20 and 28, I dabbled in spirituality, yeah, clairvoyance, and chakra healing, yeah, the hero's journey, yeah, anything I could get my hands on to help me understand, yeah, human behavior, yeah, and then understand the greater, the macro. But I really needed to understand like, why I punished myself for so long, why I chose to do things that had such a negative effect on me, yeah. I'm so glad I went through that at a young age, yeah, I really, really am, um.

And then, once I graduated at 28, you know, I was in San Francisco, yeah, it was 1998, and like, the world opened up, but I needed that piece of paper, yeah. Now, by the way, I don't think anyone needs that piece of paper today, yeah, but back in those days, yeah, it completely changed, yeah. I mean, I remove the need for anyone to have a college education here, yeah, but I did back then, yeah. And then, the world opened up, and I was in the right place, right time, yeah. It was the digital world, and away I went, and yeah, started my careers, yeah, I would say, yeah.

T: I absolutely love that because, you know, when you talk about an origin story, you think of your superheroes, you think of your conquerors. Like, there's always this thing where they came out of something, right? So, whether it's Bruce Wayne and his parents getting shot, and you know, all those things like that, or Superman and his planet blows up, right? So, there's always this thing that happens. And it sounds like for you, as you're going through schooling and going through the challenges that you, even in those dark times, you were able to express that self-awareness that this isn't working, I need something else, yeah, right, yeah, um, even in those dark moments, you know. And so, how would you, for folks that are kind of going through that, whether it's in their professional lives or their personal lives, and kind of in that dark, you know, crumbling space of, how do I still connect with, I need to do something different, versus just staying in that crumble spot, any thoughts there? ‍

C: Yeah, I mean, some big ones right there. Doing something outside of yourself, hmm, like, it's very difficult to get out of that self-pity, victimhood, yeah. But if you go to a soup kitchen, yeah, if you go, you know, dig plants up and, yeah, whatever you want to do, go, yeah, do something, go feed the animals, yeah. It's like, yeah, do something that's bigger than yourself, yeah, because for that moment, you forget your own BS, yeah, and you're a part of something that's really living and breathing. That was huge for me. So, volunteer work was really huge. Spirituality, seeking out things, you know, during the pandemic, who knew that we were going to have two and a half years of just kind of being solo, yeah, to read, or learn how to knit, and learn how to paint, all that stuff. But if you think about it, that stuff that we learned in the pandemic is actually what I'm talking about when you are feeling stuck, yeah. The way to get unstuck is to pick up the phone, hmm, and to let someone in, yeah. The way to get unstuck is to do something bigger than, yeah. The way to get unstuck is maybe to, I don't know, get a hobby, yeah. So, there's all of these things life presents, yes, and we have this incredible fortune of being able to pick and choose, yeah. Sometimes there's too many options, yeah, but in those moments of just dire like, "This sucks, yeah, God, I can't stand myself, yeah, please, pick up the phone, yeah." That's what I would say, and let someone in, let someone know before you self-destruct, and it's too late, yeah, because there's support for all of us. You know, if you think about it, people wake up in the morning, 'cause I do this, people wake up in the morning thinking about you, yeah, already, yeah. They're already rooting for you, yeah. I mean, you wake up in the morning rooting for your family, yeah, rooting for your friends, yeah, for your college roommate, yeah, so do I, yeah. But we forget that. We feel like we're so alone in this world, yeah.

T: I love that. So when you're when you're stuck in your head, get out of your head.

C: Yeah 

T: And go and connect with others and do something bigger and higher than yourself change the narrative. 

C: Yeah you better get another song in your head

T: Yeah I love that, I love that get another song in your head hashtag that. Um, and so, we see the superhero, alright. So, Claude has just climbed up the mountain. She's gone on this 93-day journey, um, experience, and she's discovered herself. She's changing her narrative. The world has opened up to her, um, and so, talk to us about the challenge, the antagonist, right, as you're going through your careers, as you would, right. So, you kind of had this self-discovery, you're entering into the working world, you're navigating through. What would you say, metaphorically, was that arch nemesis, that thing that raises its ugly head, um, an obstacle that you feel that you have to overcome? And then we'll talk about you discovering your superpower, yeah.

C: Yeah, so. Shame, man, hmm, shame, which is fear, yeah. Shame, it's such a killer, and I carried it for so long, yeah. That's one of the things, if on my last breath, if I could help someone or some people remove the shame from their worlds, I will have had a very, very happy life, yeah. Shame's a killer, and shame held me down by my ankles, even though I was rising, ascending, becoming that Phoenix, yeah. It dragged me down because I had done things in my life I wasn't proud of. I had allowed things to happen I wasn't proud of. I didn't pick up the phone, yeah, at times, yeah, and so that just followed me around like a shadow, yeah. And I think that's what shame does, yeah, until you can rid yourself, yeah, and forgive yourself, hmm. Dang, that is deep, but it is true. Rid yourself and forgive yourself. I think it's a key point to be able to recognize and call it out, right. This is the thing, right, 'cause a lot of times, folks try to avoid it, like there's a sense of like, okay, something is holding me back, but I don't wanna call it out. I don't wanna say its name, yeah, right, and honor it, or have it grow. But I think the cool thing that you're sharing is that awareness to recognize what that thing is, and then forgive yourself, right. You talked about other people are thinking about you, other people have you at the center, and they can forgive you, and they can extend grace. It's hard for ourselves to extend grace to ourselves, yeah, that's crazy, which is, it's an oxymoron. We look in the mirror every single day, and what you wanna say is, like, alright, I got this, yeah, but instead, in those moments, you're like, you suck, hmm, like, yeah, it's you telling yourself you suck. There's no other poison, yeah, as great as that, yeah, and we got to get rid of that, yeah, yeah, we got to get rid of that, especially for the generation right now, yeah, it's hooked on social, yeah. They're not looking at themselves, they're looking at others, compare, exactly, yeah, exactly, you doubly suck.‍

T: Yeah, yeah, so, we have, so, the superhero Claude has come out. She's navigating the world, she's self-discovery, and then this ugly, sinister shame shows up, right? It's bringing you down as you're growing, it's pulling you down as you're ascending, it's pulling down. And so, what is your superpower? You discover something about yourself that this is what made Claude a badass, right? Like, I crush this, and we start to get into our flow, and we attacked it. And so, what is Claude's superpower?‍

C: It's got to be empathy, empathy, and intuition, okay. And I think intuition comes before empathy, yeah, um, yeah. I mean, I went to a lot of 12-step meetings in my life, and you go into those meetings, and you look around the room, and you realize you're not alone. Not only do you realize you're not alone, you realize, oh, you don't have it that bad, hmm. And so, you start to extend grace to another, you start to help them forgive themselves, yeah, because you're just thinking it, yeah. And so, being in those rooms, and being an outward bound, and being, and you know, all kinds of things I did, I had, you know, I ran a surfing company for five years, oh wow, yeah, yeah, yeah, like, I love to be with the mess, yeah, now that I know how to deal with my own mess, yeah, it's really easy for me to be with someone else's mess, yeah, and that takes empathy, yeah. Empathy, for me, is being a passenger, stop putting your shoes on my feet. I'm never gonna know what your lived experience is like, yeah, you're never gonna know what mine's like. But having the patience to say, hey, I wonder what that's like, yeah, what you're dealing with right now. Can I ride shotgun with you? Not gonna take it on, I have good boundaries now, yeah, not gonna take it on, but you know, I see that you're in pain, and I got your back, yeah. That's the key, I got your back, you're safe with me, yeah. Hey, I'll be your island if you need some place to swim to, yeah. That does not take anything out of me to say to you because it's genuine, yeah. That's why I didn't lose a percentage of my self-worth by giving that to you, just, yeah, I gained.‍

T: Yeah, so empathy, intuition, being a passenger in somebody's journey as they're going through this, how would you say you implement that? You're the Chief Heart Officer at a global creative media advertising company, VaynerMedia. How do your superpowers carry over to the work that you do here, in leading, essentially, the people aspect of the business, yeah? How does that show up for you? How does that show up for you?

‍C: Exactly what we just did. I hold space for people, okay. This is not the Claude show right now; it might be, yeah. This isn't the Claude show when someone comes into the office or on Zoom, yeah. This is their time, yeah. We are creating and holding space for them, yeah. Whatever they want to say, it's—I'm not judge, I'm not the judging jury, yeah. You want to tell me this, that, the other, whatever, it's yeah, you're safe with me, yeah. So, I want to be a passenger with them and then help them, obviously, we're in a workplace, yeah, help connect them, yeah, to something or someone that is going to help them start to rise up, rise up, rise up. I mean, this is a place where I'm very clear on the mission, yeah. The mission is to become the single greatest human organization in the history of time. That's what Gary has said, yeah. Aspirational, sign me up, yeah. My job description is to touch every single human being and infuse the agency with empathy, yeah. How do I do that? How do I show up? I make sure that I'm leaving someone better than I found them, yeah. I'm being that person that other people want in the room. How do I know? Because I can walk in a room and I can see. I'm not on my phone, yeah. I got time. I'm accessible, yeah, available, and I really want you to thrive here. I want you to—I want you, listen, I'm giving you psychological safety, yeah, so that you do the same with other people, hmm, and provide that sense of belonging, yeah. I don't need you to shape shift into me. God knows, I'm me. I got it, but I want to help you become a champion of your own life, yeah, I do, yeah. And you know, I wanted to be a psychologist for a very, very, very long time. That's what you got your degrees, yeah, right, yeah. And I realized there was another way to do that, and that is by being of joyful service wherever I am. Teaching someone how to surf, same exact thing, yeah. Teaching someone how to hit a tennis ball, same exact, yeah. Being patient with my kids, yeah, you know, having hard conversations here, yeah, people about their development, their growth, the fact that they're a bully, like, yeah. Hey, you know, why do you feel the need to, you know, micromanage that person, yeah? What's up, what's going on for you, yeah? Those types of things, and that takes intuition, yeah, and that takes compassion and kindness, yeah, and that is a wash, rinse, repeat, yeah, wash, rinse, repeat. And all of that can exist with ambition and success. That's the amazing thing. It's not all mushy, gushy, rainbows, yeah. It's like, no, no, no, we're running a business, yeah. We're fierce. They're not mutually exclusive. You can have both, yeah. But we believe, Gary and I believe, that if you give 51% over here, yeah, 49% over here, yeah, to live, we call this the honey, this is the empire, yeah. That 1% difference makes, makes this hundred percent, yeah, hundred percent. ‍

T: Honey and the Empire. I look, and I—and one of the things that we want to do with this series is again, what is humanly possible? How can you go from where you are to where you wanna be, and really break those barriers, break those limiting beliefs, and give folks the tools and the skills to be able to unlock what's possible for them.

and so as you have gone through this heroes journey, You figure it out, in the early days, um, what was holding you back and how to kind of self-discover, find other options. I'm connecting with other people. You understand what that obstacle or nemesis is, right? Calling it shame, alright. How do we deal with that? How do we overcome it? Um, and how do we deploy empathy? How do we deploy intuition?

What I would love to do is, if you can, if we can teach that, right? So, we're talking about, um, talent acquisition, right? So, before folks come onto an organization, um, when folks are in the organization, we want to keep them, right? So, what is, how does that get deployed in retention, um, and how does that get deployed in development, right? How do we not just keep them but grow them? So, could you talk to us really quickly about how those things can be deployed in onboarding, talent acquisition, talent retention, and talent development, and talent development?‍

C: Thousand percent, and you, that's it. Those are the three things that we pay so much attention to, right? Growth mindset, communication, accountability, leadership, and we double down on all of those things. Yeah, I mean, obviously, we're in talent acquisition. We're spending so much time with people. By the time they come here, we know who they are. We've hired that person, yeah. We want you to show up. We don't want you to feel like you need to code-switch, yeah, change your stripes, right. We want that person. I changed the way we hired 7 years ago. No longer culture fit, okay? Skill set fit, culture addition.

T: Culture addition

C: Culture addition. Which allows us to look for people that don't look like, hmm, don't look like you. They look however they look, yeah, come with curiosities and abilities that, yeah, I'll never have, yeah. And so, by the time they come here, we've had this relationship, we trust them, yes, yeah. You do not need to prove yourself, yes, you trust you. Every single person goes through a three-day orientation where they sit with the CFO, if we just hired, yeah, so it's a copywriter and a C-Suite person, yeah. Whoa, I'm sitting with a C-suite person, yeah, no, everything is flat, yeah, flat, flat, flat. We want you to feel just as important as this person, yeah, that person, and it's not only important that you matter, that you matter, yeah, that's very, very different, matter, yeah. So, we swarm them with info. This is how we think, this is why we feel, this is why it's called the Honey Empire, yeah, this is why you got a chief heart officer, yeah, this is why we got a CEO that really works for us, yeah. Then we get them in the door, and they go on to onboarding on their specific teams, and whatnot. Our secret sauce is high touch, and I said a little while ago, I'm accessible and available, always, yeah. So are all of our leaders, yeah, and who did we learn that from? Our CEO, yeah, who's accessible and available, yeah, all the time. I got all the time in the world for you, yeah. People are like, oh, you don't have any time. I'm like, you're just as busy, if not as busy, right, yeah. So, spending time with people, grooming, finding out what is lighting them up, not only here, outside. They wanna be a music producer, yeah, sweet, well, we have that. We got stuff to do here, yeah. You wanna go work for Netflix, great, yeah, I'll introduce you, yeah. You wanna start NFT, wonderful, yeah, it's all here, yeah. This isn't, this powerful place, yeah. And so, retaining them, making sure that we are giving them the training and, yeah, development, also making sure DE and I is huge for us, yeah. They can see themselves in 12 years, yeah, seven years, yeah, making sure that there's representation, yeah, huge, yeah. And that's the retainment part. Now, when someone leaves, yeah, either they leave on their own accord, or we let them go, yeah, we have an alumni program, uh-huh. We get tons of CMOs asking us, hey, can you give us a social strategist? Can you give us, yes, hey, this person didn't make it here, but they're a great, great person, and will be a high performer there, yeah. So, we guarantee everyone an introduction, hmm, can't get you a job, but we can introduce you, that's wow, and that like, yeah, we care, yeah, we care. And there's no other organization I've ever worked in that cares for the human, hmm. And one of the reasons I never went into HR is because I didn't get HR, yeah. In fact, I changed the name to people and experience, right. HR means nothing to me, yeah. HR never helped me, yeah. They never were like, Claude, you're dyslexic, here, let's give you a tour, here. I'm like, I'm dyslexic, who wants a tour, yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, I'm gay, who wants to start a pride channel, yeah, like, yeah. I've never felt so me, yeah, here. And I want other people to feel that they can be themselves, yeah. And Brené Brown says, true belonging doesn't require you to change yourself, hmm. It only requires you to be who you are, hmm. It's our job, the company, to embrace you, yes. And this takes a lot of cycles, yeah, it's not Utopia here. Not everyone's got it, yeah. Everyone's searching, and they're in different parts, and just because I had my Phoenix rising doesn't mean I haven't fallen down since. I fall down all the time, yeah, but I now know how to rise quicker, yeah, and I want to teach people, yeah.

T: Oh my goodness, the two things that stuck out to me in there that gave me goosebumps—I don't know if the camera will pick up on it—but culture addition. So, from a talent acquisition standpoint, I was literally just having a conversation about this, probably yesterday or the day before, with some of the folks on my team at my 9 to 5, about culture, and um, somebody in the leadership development session had said, yeah, you shouldn't hire for culture fit, um, it's actually, I think it's called like, culture nonfit, or something like that. But culture addition, yeah, is good because you always want to be changing and evolving and developing, as opposed to, hey, we're happy with where we're at from a culture standpoint, yeah, and you need to fit into what that is, versus having somebody bring their unique perspective, their unique value, and change, yeah, what that culture looks like. And it's beautiful, yeah and we wanna learn from you. 

C: Yeah, we've got this incredible guy in London who's got a terrible stammer, terrible, terrible stammer. What I have learned from him, when I speak with him, yeah, is more than I learned from the average bear because the patience that I need to deploy to wait and understand what he's about to say, and I wanna be fully present for him, yeah. I also gotta go, right, yeah, no, what do you gotta say to me, yeah, let's go. He's got his own podcast, yeah. I love that. He must feel so honored, right, because there's always that, you know, whatever that nemesis that he's probably facing that always presents itself as like, no, in this space, I can be who I am without fear or judgment. And the patience that you deploy to do that, and then the fact that even after folks leave, right, you have the before they come, yeah, the retention while here, but the service in the heart even after that. You may not have made it here, but we are gonna help you get set up, or at least make the introduction. Like, that whole life cycle is just, that's caring in action. I've never seen that. That is awesome. We care, yeah. We care. People that leave the company, and they write me back, "Oh gosh, I thought the grass was gonna be greener, yeah. Can I come back?" Well, I don't know if they can come, yeah, but I'll certainly have a convo with them, yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh, it's awesome to be in a place that is constantly in the cycle of, yeah, reinvention, in a way, yeah, because we shed skin quickly, yeah, quickly, yeah, quickly. And that's what you wanna do. That's how you get rid of shame, that's how you get rid of all that negativity that you're carrying, as you allow that to wash away, get new skin, wash, yeah, get new skin. I mean, it's very metaphorical, but yeah, you know. The thing about culture fit that's so dangerous is, again, I mean, what, so you like Dave Matthews, and I like Dave Matthews, yes. I don't know if you can do the job, and I don't know if you really wanna be here, right, yeah. We can groove on, and we jam, yeah, but that is just gonna get us like, like, like, yeah, like apples, and apples, and apples, yeah. So, we have an entire company that likes Dave Matthews, yeah. Well, that's boring, yeah, yeah. Who's got to, let's get some John Coltrane, you know, get some Ziggy Stardust, some AC/DC, exactly, exactly. Let's rock it out.

T: Um, so thank you so much. We're gonna wrap it up, and I want to ask you this question: What have you found, what did you previously think was impossible, that you've now found to be possible?

C: That is deep, deep, deep. Patience is a big one, yeah. And when I talk about patience, I mean the long game, yeah. I was a person that didn't give myself options, yeah, in the beginning. I didn't think I had potential, so I didn't line anything up to chase or to work towards, yeah. Here, been here nine years, yeah, it's a lifetime, yeah. I have learned how to play the long game as well as the short game, yeah. But you play the short game in order to play the long, yeah. And so, Gary has taught me an enormous amount about, you know, what 2025, we're gonna nail that, yeah. It takes the pressure off of me in 2023, or takes the pressure off of John, you know, Bob, or Johnny, yeah. And so, we'll get there. Let's keep our eyes on the prize. I think that's a huge one for me, um, and I also think there's something to say about, you know, tolerance and resilience. Like, this is a job where I always have to be the bigger person, yeah. This is the job where I always have to take accountability. Anything that happens with a person and their experience here, yeah, ultimately is on these shoulders, yeah, yeah. So, I need to be very aware of what's going on, and step in, and just be like, okay, that's my bad, yeah. Let's move on, yeah, yeah. That's a really big point. That's like, okay, I take accountability, let's move on, yeah. That is now in the past, yeah, and that was worth, yeah, yeah, yeah. And don't go fishing for it, like, hey, remember that thing from—let's keep that where it's at, yeah.

T: Um, so we appreciate you, Claude, again, the story, the victory, the discovery, and the tools, the skills that folks are gonna be able to take from this, um, and overcome shame if they're going through shame, be able to lean into that self-discovery, deploy patience, and empathy. Um, and as I think, as professionals are thinking about it, um, you know, people professionals, whether it's HR, talent acquisition, or talent development, hey, what are some ways that I can do this before folks come onto the organization, to create these spaces for them? How can I leverage technology, right, with this huge influx of AI and know all these different things, of you know, different learnings, how can I infuse that into how folks come on, how do I deploy that in how we keep folks, and how even after they're gone, right, like how do we continue to support folks?‍

C: Yeah, I'm in that because it leaves a, a, a, it's part of the brand, right? It's part of the brand for the organization. It's the right thing to do, yeah, and at the end of the day, we want to be on the right side of history.‍

T: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, Claude. Thank you so much. Thank you. This was an amazing story.